Washita and Arkansas Stones

[MichaelS]

Here was a nice discovery earlier today...

I had half a cow's worth of beef ribs to trim, so got out Washita No.7 from the pic above to sharpen a knife beforehand. The stone is quite new for me, but is a very high quality bit of rock - very consistent, quite fine, but also softer than some, which gives it so nice low end speed too. I would have said with a reasonable degree of certainty this was an old Lily White:

View attachment 113233


Afterwards I decided after to clean up the old box it came in, and found something I hadn't noticed when removing it originally, the remnants of an old 30s/40s era Norton side label. The box is not original, this label would have been on the side of the stone:

View attachment 113236

View attachment 113237


So that was nice! Unfortunately I only managed to save a few scraps as it largely just dissolved as soon as I put water on it, but enough to ID it as another LW for the collection. This is particularly cool because 9 inch Washitas are rare; they don't appear in the old Norton catalogues, though there are some old 9 and 10" labelled stones out there, I assume part of special orders for particular retailers.

Here's a picture of the same side label from my other (5x2) Norton LW of the same era:

View attachment 113234

Great detective work!

 

[thesuperiorshave]

Where do you get rough cut chunks of Arkansas like that...?

directly from the grounds of the mining operation in Hot Springs, Arkansas, USA

 

[cotedupy]

directly from the grounds of the mining operation in Hot Springs, Arkansas, USA

Nice!

Funnily enough someone on KKF asked me recently if he could send me a stone from some he'd cut recently out of some rock he picked up in the late 60s, to see what I thought of it.

This 7x2 arrived last week, and it's probably better than either of my two commercially produced Soft Arks (Norton and Natural Hone Inc.). Really good whetstone

 

[cotedupy]

Here's a picture of what for my money is the single most perfect, efficacious and complete synthetic stone ever made:

As well as being the best, I'd wager also that it's likely to be the single best-selling whetstone of all time too. Perhaps unsurprising because it's also one of the cheapest, and can be had easily for $20 US or less. It is of course: the Pike-Norton Coarse and Fine India Combination stone, and it's astonishingly good. Anyone with even a passing interesting in making things sharper owes it to themselves to have one.

But that's not quite the whole story, because once-upon-a-time they made another stone, which was even better...

That is a 7 x 2"Coarse India x Washita combi, which I'd been trying to find for some time, though boxed and labelled examples like mine are rare, and expensive. I picked this up on the cheap in a job lot because the stone was broken and had been fixed badly. Though I've had a little practice with that kind of thing, so have managed to repair and make it unnoticeable in use .

I mentioned the stone briefly earlier in this thread, as well as another smaller version - the 'Sportsman' 3 x 1 3/8" pocket stone - which I picked up at the same time:

These two stones make me very happy indeed, because the Coarse India and Washita stones are the two best things that anyone has ever stuck together anywhere. The crowning pinnacle of achievement in mankind's use of glue, and the greatest whetstone in the world.

 

[MichaelS]

Very informative and another rabbit hole for me !

 

[JamieM]

I have owned this old Norton for more than 40 years, used it when I was a Carpenter joiner, it's a Norton Indian Oil stone, It's a slow and fine stone not sure what grit rating it is, It's just a relic now not sure why anyone would even consider using it, compared to modern synthetics it reminds me of those cars I learned to drive in the early 70s, 1950s-60s cars when you compared them to modern cars they just don't cut the mustard, I get the same feeling about natural stones and old rocks, they simply don't do it for me, I have always been of the opinion that if those Honemiesters of the past were handed a complete set of Naniwa Pro stones they would have thrown their coticules and all their other stones in the bin.

 

[cotedupy]

I have owned this old Norton for more than 40 years, used it when I was a Carpenter joiner, it's a Norton Indian Oil stone, It's a slow and fine stone not sure what grit rating it is, It's just a relic now not sure why anyone would even consider using it, compared to modern synthetics it reminds me of those cars I learned to drive in the early 70s, 1950s-60s cars when you compared them to modern cars they just don't cut the mustard, I get the same feeling about natural stones and old rocks, they simply don't do it for me, I have always been of the opinion that if those Honemiesters of the past were handed a complete set of Naniwa Pro stones they would have thrown their coticules and all their other stones in the bin.

View attachment 114216View attachment 114217

Ah this is interesting! Because India stones are actually very fast - far quicker than modern bonded waterstones. Or at least they can be, but they work slightly differently...

The abrasive in India stones is the same as in almost all synthetic waterstones: Aluminium Oxide. But whereas something like the Naniwa Pro is magnesia bonded, India stones are vitrified. This makes them insanely hard* and slow wearing, but also means that they will burnish and need the surface refreshing from time to time. They are not designed to release particles and cut on slurry like waterstones are - they cut with pressure, and it means they're not particularly well-suited to razor honing because you can't use that much even at bevel set. They are though excellent for tool sharpening, do you still sharpen chisels and the like...?

I guess your stone there is a Fine, it could be a Medium but more likely Fine. They're rated at 400, but the effective JIS finish is around 600-800 ime. Great stone, just works a bit differently from bonded stones, and better with oil. Though obviously it's all matters of personal preference!

---


* I once tried to break 2" off the end of an India stone, it took me 20 minutes... and I was using an axe. Fine Indias make Translucent Arks look like play-doh.

 

[JamieM]

Ah this is interesting! Because India stones are actually very fast - far quicker than modern bonded waterstones. Or at least they can be, but they work slightly differently...

The abrasive in India stones is the same as in almost all synthetic waterstones: Aluminium Oxide. But whereas something like the Naniwa Pro is magnesia bonded, India stones are vitrified. This makes them insanely hard* and slow wearing, but also means that they will burnish and need the surface refreshing from time to time. They are not designed to release particles and cut on slurry like waterstones are - they cut with pressure, and it means they're not particularly well-suited to razor honing because you can't use that much even at bevel set. They are though excellent for tool sharpening, do you still sharpen chisels and the like...?

I guess your stone there is a Fine, it could be a Medium but more likely Fine. They're rated at 400, but the effective JIS finish is around 600-800 ime. Great stone, just works a bit differently from bonded stones, and better with oil. Though obviously it's all matters of personal preference!

---


* I once tried to break 2" off the end of an India stone, it took me 20 minutes... and I was using an axe. Fine Indias make Translucent Arks look like play-doh.

On occasion, I do sharpen my chisels and my little block plane, although in the first year of my apprenticeships that's all I seemed to do was sharpen Chisels & planes, back then we also set the teeth and sharpened our saws as well. PS it's probably the reason I find honing razors and sharpening things not particularly interesting, it's years of doing it then it becomes a chore, that's why I really like Naniwa and Chosera stones, they cut quickly and the process is precise and exact and works every time it's like sharpening on auto-pilot and I like that.

 

[Shave to the grave]

I've been trying for ages to get my hands on a Washita, they go for stupid money here in the UK.
I have to agree that after 30 plus years of sharpening tools in different workshops, I've yet to find a better, easier sharpening set up than my Norton stones. I've worked with guys who've used water stones and to be honest, I just couldn't be arsed with the faff of it. It's messy to start off with. And then you've got the flattening. I don't think it's at all practical in a working enviroment. By the way, I use paraffin on my stones, it's very light & keeps them clean.
About 10 years ago I started including Arkansas stones in my sharpening & whilst not really necessary, they definitely take an edge to another level.
I use them all the time now. Here's what I do every time I sharpen up- Norton course to raise the burr, Norton fine to polish, hard Arkansas to polish & then I strop on leather with Aluminium Oxide(not chromium). If I'm really in a hurry I won't always strop. It depends on what I'm working with. If you're using carbon steel then the Norton/Arkansas stones are perfect. Although I've sharpened A2 steel on my oilstones, they may be better suited to water stones only because the stones cut so fast. When I started honing my own razors I bought the Naniwa stones up to 12k but I've recently started going from the 12k & then to a surgical black Ark. I think it gives the edge a little something. I find the edge on my Koraat is very smooth after the Ark.

This is my work set up - course, fine hard Ark.
The stones are all 1/2 inch & with this arrangement, sharpening is very quick - 2 minutes maybe.

My two very old Nortons, a 6 inch & an 8 inch. Made in the USA. IMO, the best you can get!

My soft & hard 6 inch Arks. The soft is a waste of time if you've got a Norton.

Surgical black Ark -6 inch. Only used for my razors.

 

[MichaelS]

Very intersting, thanks, and nice collection!

When I started honing my own razors I bought the Naniwa stones up to 12k but I've recently started going from the 12k & then to a surgical black Ark. I think it gives the edge a little something. I find the edge on my Koraat is very smooth after the Ark.

100% my experience too.

 

[Shave to the grave]

Very intersting, thanks, and nice collection!



100% my experience too.

Thanks

 

[MichaelS]

Here's a pic then of my 'other' Arkansas stones, I've had quite a few more old translucents that have been moved on to others who wanted one, but these are the only softs and black I've ever had:

View attachment 113170


Top: 50s era Norton Hard (black) Arkansas
Middle: 30s/40s era Norton Hard (translucent) Arkansas & 30s/40s era Norton Soft Arkansas
Bottom: Natural Hone Inc. Soft Arkansas


A couple of things to note here... Pike-Norton never sold a stone labelled as 'Translucent' or 'Black' Arkansas, they were all merely 'Hard Arkansas', and all Norton hard arks are of translucent or surgical black quality.

Pike-Norton Soft Arkansas stones are (usually) pure white - they do not tend to come in the pretty stripey colours of the Natural Hone Inc. Soft Arkansas at the bottom, in fact when fully cleaned a Norton Soft Ark can be hard to distinguish visually from a Norton Washita. They also tend to have far higher specific gravity readings than that colourful one at the bottom, in this case the Norton Soft is something like 2.55, whereas the other is 2.10. Which puts the Norton Soft in the range of what some other companies sell as Hard Arkansas, and the colourful one as what is sometimes sold by the same companies as a Washita. It is probably the kind of stone described by Griswold as the 'Calico Ouachita', which is why I've included in both pictures.

(Just in case you weren't already confused enough by the definitions of these stones!)

Going back to nomenclature, Dictum sells Arks with the following names, in what they claim is an ascending order of 'fineness'. I'd be very interested in your thoughts about their claim that Hard Black is finer than Hard (which is cream coloured in their offering). And also on the relative merits of the last three (Surgical Black, Translucent Black and Translucent (white). I own all three, they are all superb finishers but when shaving my face can't tell the difference between them!

Soft, Hard, Hard Black, Surgical Black, Translucent Black and Translucent (white)

Arkansas Shaping Stone, Soft, 205 x 50 x 13 mm | | Dictum

Arkansas Shaping Stone, Soft, 205 x 50 x 13 mm from category with 30-day right of return at Dictum

www.dictum.com

 

[cotedupy]

Going back to nomenclature, Dictum sells Arks with the following names, in what they claim is an ascending order of 'fineness'. I'd be very interested in your thoughts about their claim that Hard Black is finer than Hard (which is cream coloured in their offering). And also on the relative merits of the last three (Surgical Black, Translucent Black and Translucent (white). I own all three, they are all superb finishers but when shaving my face can't tell the difference between them!

Soft, Hard, Hard Black, Surgical Black, Translucent Black and Translucent (white)

Arkansas Shaping Stone, Soft, 205 x 50 x 13 mm | | Dictum

Arkansas Shaping Stone, Soft, 205 x 50 x 13 mm from category with 30-day right of return at Dictum

www.dictum.com

I'm not a massive expert on the finer end of Arks tbh. The only ones I've had are old Norton 'Hard Arkansas' which are usually translucent, or occasionally black. I've had a few trans, but only one black and it isn't particularly translucent - it's the kind of thing people describe as 'Surgical Black' now. The difference is almost non-existent, they're both insanely fine.

I've not had one of the cream coloured hard arks that other companies sell, but I understand they're possibly more similar to what Norton used to sell as Soft Arkansas. My Norton Soft has an SG over 2.5, which puts it in Hard Ark territory for most other companies nowadays.

 

[cotedupy]

I get asked a little bit about Washita stones over on KKF, especially when I'm letting any of the collection go on BST. And one aspect I always try to explain or point out is how they differ in use from synthetic waterstones that people might be more familiar with.

So today I made a little intro video, which hopefully explains a little about them for anyone unfamiliar, and shows how you can take a knife from badly blunted and beaten up, to clean drop-cutting kitchen towel in under 2 mins. The ability to work in this way on a single stone is what makes Washitas special. Nothing else, natural or synthetic, will do this.

(I'm pretty rubbish at talking on camera, but I think it covers the basics).

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8VZeyLkrE8

 

[cotedupy]

I've been trying for ages to get my hands on a Washita, they go for stupid money here in the UK.
I have to agree that after 30 plus years of sharpening tools in different workshops, I've yet to find a better, easier sharpening set up than my Norton stones. I've worked with guys who've used water stones and to be honest, I just couldn't be arsed with the faff of it. It's messy to start off with. And then you've got the flattening. I don't think it's at all practical in a working enviroment. By the way, I use paraffin on my stones, it's very light & keeps them clean.
About 10 years ago I started including Arkansas stones in my sharpening & whilst not really necessary, they definitely take an edge to another level.
I use them all the time now. Here's what I do every time I sharpen up- Norton course to raise the burr, Norton fine to polish, hard Arkansas to polish & then I strop on leather with Aluminium Oxide(not chromium). If I'm really in a hurry I won't always strop. It depends on what I'm working with. If you're using carbon steel then the Norton/Arkansas stones are perfect. Although I've sharpened A2 steel on my oilstones, they may be better suited to water stones only because the stones cut so fast. When I started honing my own razors I bought the Naniwa stones up to 12k but I've recently started going from the 12k & then to a surgical black Ark. I think it gives the edge a little something. I find the edge on my Koraat is very smooth after the Ark.
View attachment 114281
This is my work set up - course, fine hard Ark.
The stones are all 1/2 inch & with this arrangement, sharpening is very quick - 2 minutes maybe.
View attachment 114282
My two very old Nortons, a 6 inch & an 8 inch. Made in the USA. IMO, the best you can get!
View attachment 114286
My soft & hard 6 inch Arks. The soft is a waste of time if you've got a Norton.
View attachment 114287
Surgical black Ark -6 inch. Only used for my razors.

Interesting you've found old Washitas quite pricey in the UK, because there are loads out there, probably even more common to find than in the US. If you know what to look for they can be had very cheaply - my record is £3, and I've had a few around a tenner. Even cleaned and ID-ed stones only fetch about £40 - £60 for a full 8x2. Which still looks like screaming value for something that hasn't been quarried in some time, and is just one of the best stones ever. Especially when you take into account that you'd probably need a progression of three synths to do what a single Washita can, and it'll last far longer than they will.

Dunno if I'm allowed to say this (if not I'm sure someone can edit), but for all sorts of old stones, including Washitas, I'd strongly recommend Rob - robcooper29 on ebay. Accurately described, reasonably priced, and he hones both knives and razors so can give good, honest advice about a particular stone's suitability if you ping him a message. Really good guy.

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Nice collection of stones there btw! And yeah, I've gotta agree... those Norton India Coarse and Fine Indias are pretty much the most perfect synthetic stone ever made. There's a reason it's been in continuous production for well over 100 years!

You use regular paraffin then? Rather than paraffin (mineral) oil? Perhaps I should try that sometime, how does it smell...?